Islamic Terrorism in India

Most Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims

What made Shabana Azmi conscious of her Muslim identity

Posted by jagoindia on May 10, 2009


 

What made Shabana Azmi conscious of her Muslim identity 
Hasan Suroor, Friday, May 08, 2009 
TRANSFORMED: From a “cultural” Muslim into someone acutely conscious of her Muslim identity. — 
In a short film on her life and work, Shabana Azmi when asked how she would describe herself says: “I’m an actor, I’m a Muslim, I’m a social activist…”
Ms Azmi’s stress on her religious identity would seem strange to anyone familiar with her background — daughter of diehard Communist activists; childhood spent in a godless commune; and married, by choice, to a progressive, non-practising poet and film-maker. Had I misheard ? Was she quoted out of context? 
Odd though her remark might have sounded, I would be lying if I said I was surprised. 
For this is what post-Ayodhya and post-9/11 climate has done: made even notional and accidental Muslims conscious of their religion. I know Muslims who once despaired of religious tags but are now increasingly tending to go the Shabana Azmi way though, in India, the situation is not yet as dire as in the West where Muslims are going to absurd lengths to assert their Islamic identity.
At a question-and-answer session that followed the screening of the film at the Nehru Centre, Ms Azmi explained her transformation from being simply a “cultural” Muslim with a taste for “biryani” and Urdu poetry into someone who was now acutely conscious of her Muslim identity.
And, inevitably, she traced it to the demolition of Babri Masjid which she described as the most “traumatic” experience of her life; and the violence sparked by it. 
“Until then, I had taken my composite culture for granted but for the first time, I was made conscious that I was not simply another Indian citizen but a Muslim. I couldn’t believe this was happening. My multicultural world was shattered with the Shiva Sena wanting proof of my loyalty,” Ms Azmi said.
And then came 9/11 after which every Muslim came to be seen as a potential terrorist. 
“When we protested they said ‘no, no we’re not saying all Muslims are terrorists but it is also a fact that all terrorists are Muslims.’ What nonsense! Are all Tamil Tigers Muslim; are all Naxals Muslims; or are all Maoist guerrillas Muslims? Such sweeping generalisations don’t help. It puts the whole community on the defensive,” she said adding: “When you are called a Muslim as though it were a term of abuse it makes you edgy…and makes it difficult for you to be objective about your community.” 
Yet, the fact was that for all their problems Indian Muslims were privileged because they lived in a democracy: a privilege that not many Muslims could claim, she pointed out. 
“When I say things like these, journalists turn around and ask: so are you saying that Muslims don’t face discrimination? My answer is: yes, they do, but so do women, and the Dalits, and the disabled. Who doesn’t face discrimination of some sort? It is not about discrimination. It is about tolerance. It worries me that all over the world people are becoming more intolerant,” Ms Azmi said.
She also had a bone to pick with the media which, she said, ignored moderate Muslim voices because it did not find them “sexy enough.” There were “very strong” moderate Muslim voices in India but they were not represented in the media. On the other hand, there was a tendency to play up the extreme Muslim view; and to sensationalise even moderate opinion by quoting it out of context.
Illustrating this with a personal experience Ms Azmi said not long ago she was quoted as complaining that she and her husband Javed Akhtar could not find a house of their choice in Bombay because they were Muslim.
“What I had in fact said was that I was not bitter about it because discrimination happens against everyone. They edited out that sentence and I was left sounding as a bitter Muslim complaining about discrimination — and this led to a huge controversy,” she said.
But things were changing and some very strong liberal voices were emerging in the media. 
She admitted that Muslims had been complacent after 9/11 and “didn’t bother much” but had now realised that they needed to stand up and be counted as their response to the Mumbai attacks showed. 
“When I first heard of the Mumbai attacks I was very afraid and said to myself: this is it for Muslims. They will find it very difficult. But nothing happened because Muslims responded very sensibly,” she said pointing out how a group of imams refused to allow the terrorists’ bodies to be buried in their cemetery because, they said, what these men had done was un-Islamic and they had no right to be buried in a Muslim cemetery. 
There was little new in what Ms Azmi said but it was obvious that she felt hurt; and her new-found obsession with her Muslim identity shows what the anti-Muslim hysteria has done even to the moderate Muslim mind. 
One doesn’t necessarily have to swallow the Muslim protestations of innocence and victimhood (a lot of their difficulties are of their own making) to understand why they feel the way they do, but a crude display of religious identity is still hard to justify. 

What made Shabana Azmi conscious of her Muslim identity 

Hasan Suroor, Friday, May 08, 2009 

TRANSFORMED: From a “cultural” Muslim into someone acutely conscious of her Muslim identity. — 

In a short film on her life and work, Shabana Azmi when asked how she would describe herself says: “I’m an actor, I’m a Muslim, I’m a social activist…”

Ms Azmi’s stress on her religious identity would seem strange to anyone familiar with her background — daughter of diehard Communist activists; childhood spent in a godless commune; and married, by choice, to a progressive, non-practising poet and film-maker. Had I misheard ? Was she quoted out of context? 

Odd though her remark might have sounded, I would be lying if I said I was surprised. 

For this is what post-Ayodhya and post-9/11 climate has done: made even notional and accidental Muslims conscious of their religion. I know Muslims who once despaired of religious tags but are now increasingly tending to go the Shabana Azmi way though, in India, the situation is not yet as dire as in the West where Muslims are going to absurd lengths to assert their Islamic identity.

At a question-and-answer session that followed the screening of the film at the Nehru Centre, Ms Azmi explained her transformation from being simply a “cultural” Muslim with a taste for “biryani” and Urdu poetry into someone who was now acutely conscious of her Muslim identity.

And, inevitably, she traced it to the demolition of Babri Masjid which she described as the most “traumatic” experience of her life; and the violence sparked by it. 

“Until then, I had taken my composite culture for granted but for the first time, I was made conscious that I was not simply another Indian citizen but a Muslim. I couldn’t believe this was happening. My multicultural world was shattered with the Shiva Sena wanting proof of my loyalty,” Ms Azmi said.

And then came 9/11 after which every Muslim came to be seen as a potential terrorist. 

“When we protested they said ‘no, no we’re not saying all Muslims are terrorists but it is also a fact that all terrorists are Muslims.’ What nonsense! Are all Tamil Tigers Muslim; are all Naxals Muslims; or are all Maoist guerrillas Muslims? Such sweeping generalisations don’t help. It puts the whole community on the defensive,” she said adding: “When you are called a Muslim as though it were a term of abuse it makes you edgy…and makes it difficult for you to be objective about your community.” 

Yet, the fact was that for all their problems Indian Muslims were privileged because they lived in a democracy: a privilege that not many Muslims could claim, she pointed out. 

“When I say things like these, journalists turn around and ask: so are you saying that Muslims don’t face discrimination? My answer is: yes, they do, but so do women, and the Dalits, and the disabled. Who doesn’t face discrimination of some sort? It is not about discrimination. It is about tolerance. It worries me that all over the world people are becoming more intolerant,” Ms Azmi said.

She also had a bone to pick with the media which, she said, ignored moderate Muslim voices because it did not find them “sexy enough.” There were “very strong” moderate Muslim voices in India but they were not represented in the media. On the other hand, there was a tendency to play up the extreme Muslim view; and to sensationalise even moderate opinion by quoting it out of context.

Illustrating this with a personal experience Ms Azmi said not long ago she was quoted as complaining that she and her husband Javed Akhtar could not find a house of their choice in Bombay because they were Muslim.

“What I had in fact said was that I was not bitter about it because discrimination happens against everyone. They edited out that sentence and I was left sounding as a bitter Muslim complaining about discrimination — and this led to a huge controversy,” she said.

But things were changing and some very strong liberal voices were emerging in the media. 

She admitted that Muslims had been complacent after 9/11 and “didn’t bother much” but had now realised that they needed to stand up and be counted as their response to the Mumbai attacks showed. 

“When I first heard of the Mumbai attacks I was very afraid and said to myself: this is it for Muslims. They will find it very difficult. But nothing happened because Muslims responded very sensibly,” she said pointing out how a group of imams refused to allow the terrorists’ bodies to be buried in their cemetery because, they said, what these men had done was un-Islamic and they had no right to be buried in a Muslim cemetery. 

There was little new in what Ms Azmi said but it was obvious that she felt hurt; and her new-found obsession with her Muslim identity shows what the anti-Muslim hysteria has done even to the moderate Muslim mind. 

One doesn’t necessarily have to swallow the Muslim protestations of innocence and victimhood (a lot of their difficulties are of their own making) to understand why they feel the way they do, but a crude display of religious identity is still hard to justify.

18 Responses to “What made Shabana Azmi conscious of her Muslim identity”

  1. Oh so if she asserts that she is a Muslim then its OK & secular but if a Hindu says he proud to be a Hindu and demands his rights and liberties then he is communal. Hypocrisy.

    Ms. Shabana its not like Babri ‘encroachment’ Dhancha was removed just yesterday that you are so overtly Muslim taking cheap pot shots on unjustifiably demonized Hindus all the times. By that standard Hindus should be allot more chauvinist in imposing their Sanatan Vedic Dharm identity as over a million devout Hindus lost their lives protecting God Shri Ram Mandir alone along with many more who laid their lives saving God Shri Somnath Mandir (destroyed 7 times by Muslims), God Shri Krishn Mandir in Mathura and God Shri Kashi Vishwanath Mandir in Varanasi to name a few. How about those 5 Million devout Hindus who lost their lives to persecution by Mughals invaders only to rename Hinduraaj mountain range as Hindukush (Slayer of Hindus in Arabic)? Largest Genocide in the world!

    How about those 62 innocent Hindu citizens burnt alive by terrorists in that train in Godhra in 2002 and those 450 innocent Hindus murdered in the riots that followed? That was and is traumatizing for us too as that terrorist attack happened comparatively closer in time than when those bricks of that encroachment were rearranged.

    Just be glad we are tolerant enough to bear your misdeeds and not imposing our identity on you.

    Stop being a Islamo-Fascist spreading mythical rumors like “apartment was denied”, follow the law of land, learn to respect Hindus and behave like an Indian. If you just want to be a Muslim only then Pakistan/Bangladesh is just across the border, please go there.

  2. SLH said

    It is people like Satyabhashnam who represent the budding communal ideology in the majority. It is no fault of theirs, with media and propaganda wielding increasing influence, hate mongering is easy and very effective. India is a secular democracy and every citizen has a right to live as he pleases, without discrimination of any kind.

    No one is generalising Hindus as demons, nor is anyone trying to take pot shots at a particular community. These are just means used by a few, for whom human life itself is the cheapest of all commodities, in order to fuel communal passions for their own selfish purpose. This realisation must dawn upon the civil society of this diverse country, for it is essential for peace and tolerance.

    Every community has had atrocities committed against it at one point or another in history, but we must view the recent incidents in the current time frame, in a country built upon the foundations of justice and equality. The argument put forth that because others have suffered in the past or are suffering elsewhere, asking for justice is wrong, is improper and completely maims any justice system.

    Statements like “just be glad we are tolerant enough to bear your misdeeds” and “learn to respect Hindus” are unbecoming of of a broad minded and educated member of society. These will only serve to increase the security concerns of any Muslim reading them which will further extend the differences that the two communities currently feel. Thus increasing confrontation rather than reconciliation.

    It is simple to fall prey to bias, but a little effort to understand the perspective of millions of Muslims who have nothing to do with any attack or hate and who just want to live their lives peacefully, will serve to enhance this wonderfully diverse democracy.

    Being a Muslim does not negate being an Indian, and being an Indian does not negate being a Muslim. Muslims, and other minorities, are citizens of this country, love this country, and do not care to live in any other. But when people are constantly reminded of countries across the border, or are asked to prove their patriotic credentials, it undoubtedly hurts them and causes friction.

    I would only urge my fellow countrymen, whether they belong to the majority or a minority community, to be more tolerant in their ideology and see through people trying to manipulate or instigate them. No religion teaches hate, and casualties in communal clashes are invariably innocent people. Let us hope for a day when India can proudly call itself secular, a day when its citizens realise that before they are Marathis, Muslims or Yadavs, they are human beings.

  3. S said

    “No religion teaches hate, and casualties in communal clashes are invariably innocent people. Let us hope for a day when India can proudly call itself secular, a day when its citizens realise that before they are Marathis, Muslims or Yadavs, they are human beings.”

    No religion teaches hate. That is what the typical Indian is spoon-fed since he/her attends kindergarten school. Would the author of the post above be so kind as to inform us if he/she has read the Kuran, the Hadiths, and the Sira ? Would he/she be willing to inform us that he/she has read the 1400 years of bloody history of Islam and the genocides that have been committed in the name of Allah ? Would he/she care to explain why there exists a Pakistan and a Bangladesh ? And why the Kashmiri Pundits were driven out of Kashmir, India’s most heavily Muslim populated state ?

    “History of the Jihad against the Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 – ongoing)”

    http://www.historyofjihad.org/india.html?syf=contact

    13,000 + Jihad attacks since Sept. 11, 2001.

    http://thereligionofpeace.com/

  4. Ashish Jha said

    Hahahaha

    Height of Hypocrisy!
    What if hindus start asserting their religious identity after Mumbai blasts and Godhra. Entire Indian history is filled with atrocities of Hindus by muslim invaders. Its not a particular incident that made muslims assert their religious identity, they just need a reason to assert it.

    Its the demands made by insurgents that classifies a terrorist with a religion or ideology and not the religion that he/she may be following. Therefore LTTE or ULFA or naxals can not be called Hindu terrorists because their demands are political and it can be negotiated to full fill the aspirations of people who feel let down by their respective governments. But ya LET or HUJI or SIMI are definitely Islamic terrorists because their motivation comes from dogmas of Koran. They want to convert entire population of india to Islam and their demands can not be negotiated.

    Its not the world or west at war with islam but vice versa. Why is it that majority of conflicts in the world have Islam in common be it Checneya or Bosnia or Kashmir or Nigeria.

    You can find a secular muslim but look over the world you wont find a single secular muslim society.

    To maintain secular fabric of the country is not just responsibility of the majority but minority as well. Why, if muslims are really interested in nation building, dont support common civil code? How can a maddrassa educated youth be employable in an IT firm or army or police or administration?

    Muslims of India seem to be regret for not being born in Sau-di-Arabia. Muslims today need to do an introspection. They must not forget that no matter what muslims of india will remain a second grade muslims for sau di arabia or any country of middle east.

  5. SLH said

    Anger and hate will never result in a peaceful consensus. I have read the Quran and the Hadis and I would like to make a few comments about the same. The Quran is a text that must be read and interpreted by the individual reading it, and no one else. Unfortunately, because it is open to interpretation, text from the Quran can be used as easily by the so called maulvi’s (subject to their own interpretation) as it can be used by people to showcase Islam as a violent religion. Even in the process of translation from Arabic to any other language requires human intervention and creeping in of bias. The Hadis, based on incidents from the life of the prophet, does not teach any hate or violence. If the argument put forth is that the Quran and the Hadis teach hate and violence, then I beg to differ. I would urge ‘S’ to re-read the text without any previous bias or depending upon any one else’s comments or interpretation. If he would be kind enough to give me his mailing address, I would be glad to send him a copy myself.

    In the history of man, there has always been subjugation of poor and violence. There have been approximately 120 years of peace (fragmented)in thousands of years of history. All these cannot be attributed to the advent of Islam. The recent world wars, particularly the genocide at the hands of a European country seeking Aryan supremacy in the latter, had no hand of Islam. The British government has committed atrocities against our country and slowly sucked out its resources, but we do not feel angry about that today. We live in a world where global capitalism, sitting pretty on the shoulders of western colonisation, is here to stay. The weaker sections of this country die of heat and starvation, irrespective of their community, but are used merely as vote banks that can easily be engulfed in confrontational passion.

    Why did the Taliban come into existence? Who gave them weapons? Who taught them the lob sided version of Islam that was intentionally implanted in their education system, and which has formed their current right wing ideology? There is no smoke without fire, but at times the real villains are shrewd enough to light the fire, blame it on others, and then get away unnoticed.

    The contributors on this blog would be glad to know that the condition of Muslims in this country is worse than dalits (I can hear a resounding “they deserve it”) as per the recent Sachar committee report. I would again urge, for the sake of a balanced approach, everyone to get a copy of this report and read it. The chairperson of the committee is Justice Rajindar Sachar, who is a non-muslim (in case this helps proving its trustworthiness). Illiteracy is rampant in a majority of Muslim families, for whom the only option at an education is a madarsa. Any Muslim, or for that matter any individual, would not send his/her children to an informal centre of education like a ‘madarsa’, if better infrastructure and formal education was available. This is not community centric problem, but a problem of weak infrastructure in the country.

    A terrorist is as much as fault as any other, irrespective of his ideology. Any demands, whether they are political or religious, stem from people feeling let down by the government. It is the means of expression that is wrong. What you are saying is that you would prefer LTTE/ULFA kill people, rather than LET/HUJI/SIMI. Do any of these organisations kill people after segregating them by community? They do not. How can you say that the Mumbai attacks are atrocities committed against Hindus? What will you tell the family of a Muslim who lost his/her life in those attacks? When there is a bomb blast in this country, do you think that somehow the Muslims, or any other minority, remain unharmed? This is a double edged sword for Indian Muslims, first, they are as vulnerable as anyone else when there is a terror attack, and second, they have to immediately worry about their own security and prove their innocence due to the danger of a rising communal feeling in the population.

    Where have I ever mentioned that maintaining the secular fabric of a country is the responsibility of the majority? It depends on every citizen of the country. It is true that the more radical and extremist elements in Islam have been more organised, better prepared and more vocal than their moderate counterparts. The only way for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing, and the moderate elements in Islam have exemplified this statement, more so in the current scenario. It is definitely more important for the secular and moderate voices within Islam to be heard, but that does not imply that there only a few of them. Nor does it imply that Muslims in general regret not being born in Sau-di-Arabia. This is a gross generalisation, which can only be removed through greater interaction.

    “You can find a secular Muslim but look over the world you wont find a single secular Muslim society.”

    In order to make such a statement, broad based and extensive knowledge of the history and politics of the countries of the world is necessary. Without which such a statement may be harsh and misleading. I did a quick google search and found this link:
    http://members.tripod.com/arabicpaper/country.html

    The URL gives a list more than forty ‘Muslim’ countries. I would suggest a study of every country first, followed by a study of all non-Muslim countries. After all, how many countries are there which have not witnessed political unrest and violence? To tell you honestly, if anyone does find such a list, I would request you to post it as I would definitely like to know more or, if possible, visit these places. Just to take an example from the top of my head, the American civil war led to a large number of casualties; the percentage of Muslims at the time must have been minimal.

    Just try to put yourselves in the shoes of a Muslim born in India, what is his fault if Aurangzeb destroyed temples? Will taking revenge for incidents that occurred hundreds of years ago solve any problems today? If so, then all communities must make a list of casualties they have suffered, atrocities that were committed and places of worship that were razed, and begin their quest for justice.

  6. PK said

    Comments on SLH’s analysis:

    What SLH is mentioning is quite sensible – prima facie. But the moot point is the intolerance inbuilt in Islam itself. I do not want to engage in polemics with SLH and his arguments which are applicable only when a ‘religious’ Society has tolerance in-built. Islam, sadly, is a different ball-game altogether.

    SLH, Please understand Pakistan was built on the edifice that Muslims are a separate nation and sadly this notion is being carried even now by significant number of Indian Muslims led by Imam Bukhari, Madanis, Ibrahim Lonis, Shahabuddins, Dawoods etc. Even, Pakistan’s name chosen was with mischievous intent and by contrast implied Hindustan was “impure”. To digress, hypothetically, how would you react when a separate state is created and named as “Shuddh-Sanatan-Sthan”. That would mean all other lands surrounding it are polluted and defiled. Fortunately, for the world, history has now borne out the fact which nation is pure and which one is not! Pakistan has not only cut itself asunder owing to the inhuman atrocities and pogroms carried out on Bangla Hindus & Muslims, but is now in serious danger of few other surgical amputations.

    The ugly face of sub-continents’ bigoted Muslim is exposed by the very systematic elimination of minorities from their “PureLand” carried out during the past 60 years. SLH, you mentioned Aurangzeb. Yes, his bigoted legacy still lives on and his vile blood still flows through many of his co-religionists. Look at the Talibanis. The final face of pogrom is being carried out in Pakistan in full view of the entire world. Hindus and Sikhs from Taliban controlled areas are being booted out. Another diaspora. We do not want arm-chair apologists like you to misguide. Regarding your opinion on your holy books, the less said the better. I have gone through the same and honestly appalled by the contents. Going by the passages, I am convinced that what the Talibanis are doing correct. In your holy books too much venom is being spewed on other religionists, idol worshippers, non-believers and the Momins are enjoined upon a sense of duty ti eliminate. By non-believer, the correct meaning is “un-belief” in Allah. Thus the Talibans are properly following Islam as it is intended to be..! Should a change be required, nothing short of a major reforms movement should be initiated. Please go out and reform your religion, before mouthing goody-goodies. Too many violent passages are in-built in Koran, aHadiths and Sira.
    Closer home, in India, the Indian state has failed miserably in protecting its citizen’s life and property in Kashmir valley. Time and again India Muslims blow up Gujarat riots (the genesis of which can be squarely rest on Godhra Muslims) instead of mentioning anything about the plight of Pandits. Back in 1920s, why did the Kerala Mappalahs, indulge in Ghazwas as a step to re-establish Khalifa rule. Sir, yet again, the ugly face of Islam has been exposed. Please acquaint yourself with plight of displaced and dispossessed Hindu Pandits of Kashmir and then publish your goody-goody rhetoric. This sorry sate of affairs is due to the violent passages from Koran.

    Regarding terrorist attacks, well the pious claims of SLH are hollow. Yes agreed, victims were Indians, irrespective of their religious affiliation. But teh Indian Mujahideens letter exposes the intent very clearly. Their venom spewed on Hindus and Hindu deities still reek of dead carcass’ stink.

    Finally, the claim that Muslims are poor and deprived is hollow. There are too many Muslims participating in all walks of life to call this bluff. One last test. Hindu Society is tolerant enough to accept a “Dilip Shekar’s” conversion to Islam as A R Rahman and applauds him for his acievements. But would this be possible say, if ShahRukh Khan disavows Islam and embraces Hinduism? Believe me he will killed in broad daylight for apostacy. Such is the bitter truth of Islam.

    SLH, reform, before it is too late. Your moderate voice is hopelssly feeble for the deafening jihadi cries raised by the Muhammadan Jihadists.

  7. S said

    “Anger and hate will never result in a peaceful consensus. I have read the Quran and the Hadis and I would like to make a few comments about the same. The Quran is a text that must be read and interpreted by the individual reading it, and no one else.”

    It seems that there is a whole lot of misinterpreting of the Kuran and the Hadiths is going on. 13,000 + Jihad attacks since Sept. 11, 2001.

    http://thereligionofpeace.com

    “would urge ‘S’ to re-read the text without any previous bias or depending upon any one else’s comments or interpretation. If he would be kind enough to give me his mailing address, I would be glad to send him a copy myself.”

    S has read the Kuran and the Hadiths several times and each time the violence and the depravity of the Prophet Muhammad (who was a looter, rapist, mass-murderer and a paedophile) has appalled him. This psycho is regarded by the Muhammadans as Uswa-hasana, Al-insan, Al-kamil (The Perfect Man to be imitated in all respects of dress, beard, paedophilia, murder and rape of Kafirs) and if one reads the history of jihad, Muhammadans have imitated him to the letter for the better part of 1400 years.

    http://historyofjihad.org

    “The contributors on this blog would be glad to know that the condition of Muslims in this country is worse than dalits (I can hear a resounding “they deserve it”) as per the recent Sachar committee report. I would again urge, for the sake of a balanced approach, everyone to get a copy of this report and read it. The chairperson of the committee is Justice Rajindar Sachar, who is a non-muslim (in case this helps proving its trustworthiness). Illiteracy is rampant in a majority of Muslim families, for whom the only option at an education is a madarsa. Any Muslim, or for that matter any individual, would not send his/her children to an informal centre of education like a ‘madarsa’, if better infrastructure and formal education was available. This is not community centric problem, but a problem of weak infrastructure in the country.”

    How come there are no Parsis rioting ? Buddhists blowing themselves up because of weak infrastructure ? Hell, these so-called “Dalits” killing people over the lack of schools ?

    “just try to put yourselves in the shoes of a Muslim born in India, what is his fault if Aurangzeb destroyed temples? Will taking revenge for incidents that occurred hundreds of years ago solve any problems today? If so, then all communities must make a list of casualties they have suffered, atrocities that were committed and places of worship that were razed, and begin their quest for justice.”

    I want you to reply to me about Kashmir, the only state in India where Muhammadans are a majority. What did they do to the minorities ? Half a million Kashmiri Pundits were forced to leave their land, thousands of them killed, and temples are being destroyed in Kashmir right now as I type. Shankaracharya Hills is being called as Takht-e-Suleiman by the muhammadan government of that state, and Hurriyat states that prolonging the time period of Amarnath Yatra is bad. The muslim government of Kashmir states that there will be massive riots if Afzal Guru, a muhammadan terrorist is hanged.

    It is not about what happened hundreds of years ago. Jihad was here then. Jihad is here now. And every muhammadan is either a jihadi, or a supporter of jihad.

  8. SLH said

    First to tackle PK’s comments, S could also retort to this. I will take your (PK) comments paragraph by paragraph, and try to provide some kind of argument.

    “What SLH is mentioning is quite sensible – prima facie. But the moot point is the intolerance inbuilt in Islam itself. I do not want to engage in polemics with SLH and his arguments which are applicable only when a ‘religious’ Society has tolerance in-built. Islam, sadly, is a different ball-game altogether.”

    As I have already mentioned before, Islam is not an intolerant religion. I cannot assess your reading of the text, nor the context in which you interpreted and understood the text. I would only urge you to state facts, or from your formidable knowledge of the text, produce certain excerpts that you find most violent. Only then can I argue forth and discuss the text and meaning. As for your current stance, I cannot refute a deeply ingrained ideology, and neither can you refute my personal understanding of a particular text.

    There is no doubt that anti-nationalist Muslims became a formidable force during the politically sensitive pre partition era. At the same time there were groups such as the RSS who publicly made statements about a free India after thousands of years of subjugation. Separatism existed on both sides, and still does to this day. Who were the first to blame is a matter of endless debate. Yet, what the Muslims who went to Pakistan did is none of my concern. The creation of Pakistan left a larger number of Muslims in India without solving the minority problem in any way. The concise and effective divide and rule politics of the British combined with a swift, insensitive and badly managed partition migration have left deep wounds. But this is no evidence that all Indian Muslims cater to a separatist ideology.

    “Even, Pakistan’s name chosen was with mischievous intent and by contrast implied Hindustan was “impure”. To digress, hypothetically, how would you react when a separate state is created and named as “Shuddh-Sanatan-Sthan”. That would mean all other lands surrounding it are polluted and defiled. Fortunately, for the world, history has now borne out the fact which nation is pure and which one is not! Pakistan has not only cut itself asunder owing to the inhuman atrocities and pogroms carried out on Bangla Hindus & Muslims, but is now in serious danger of few other surgical amputations.”

    Of all the effects of partition on the politics and population of India, if a major sore point is the name of Pakistan, then it is slightly unfortunate. Apart from it being an extremely myopic and insignificant issue, by feeling agitated about a name would be playing into the hands of people whose purpose may have been exactly that. Hypothetically, I would react with a generous smile at the creation of Shuddh-Sanatan-Sthan, and then proceed to analyse other significant repercussions it may have on the lives of all Indians. Furthermore, the assumption that calling something pure or good implies the impurity of all things surrounding it, is quiet dangerous. By following that logic, nothing should be named anything positive, as it would signify negative connotations to everything around it. Naming a child ‘Vijay’ would probably mean that a parent wants everyone else’s children to lose.

    Also, with regard to the statement regarding which country is pure and which is not (with Pakistan as the prime example of an impure country), I just want to clarify what you mean by a ‘pure’ country. What factors, according to you, make a country impure? Is it political strife, prevalence of disease, poverty, Human Development Index, violence or simply the mortality rate? If it is a combination of these factors, then some of the African nations might be Muslim without realising it.

    “The ugly face of sub-continents’ bigoted Muslim is exposed by the very systematic elimination of minorities from their “PureLand” carried out during the past 60 years. SLH, you mentioned Aurangzeb. Yes, his bigoted legacy still lives on and his vile blood still flows through many of his co-religionists. Look at the Talibanis. The final face of pogrom is being carried out in Pakistan in full view of the entire world. Hindus and Sikhs from Taliban controlled areas are being booted out. Another diaspora. We do not want arm-chair apologists like you to misguide. Regarding your opinion on your holy books, the less said the better. I have gone through the same and honestly appalled by the contents. Going by the passages, I am convinced that what the Talibanis are doing correct. In your holy books too much venom is being spewed on other religionists, idol worshippers, non-believers and the Momins are enjoined upon a sense of duty ti eliminate. By non-believer, the correct meaning is “un-belief” in Allah. Thus the Talibans are properly following Islam as it is intended to be..! Should a change be required, nothing short of a major reforms movement should be initiated. Please go out and reform your religion, before mouthing goody-goodies. Too many violent passages are in-built in Koran, aHadiths and Sira.”

    I think I have talked enough about violence, death and poverty existing across kingdoms in history around the world. The British were able to rule India because of the friction that existed between different states. Regionalism, in India, has had a much greater impact on the killing of innocent civilians, rather than religion. Aurangzeb’s ‘vile’ blood came from the blood of Akbar, who, it seems, was more secular. Dara Shikoh, who is mentioned in one of the links which lists Aurangzeb’s atrocities, shared the same blood but was again rather different. Generalising a whole religion based on the actions of one man is a little far fetched. It would be great if you could conserve some of the anti-Aurangzeb energy and passion in order to address the issues of more than 150,000 farmers who have committed suicide within the last twenty years. Large numbers are Hindu but continue in abject poverty, why not help them too?

    If you believe that the Taliban is doing as the Quran states, then I’m grateful you were not born in Muslim family; else you would have definitely been a terrorist or repute. Let me again ask you to draw on your grasp of theology (particularly the religions of the sub-continent) and answer two questions for me. Who is a Muslim? (What are the core principles that make a person a Muslim) and who is a Hindu?

    Whom have the Taliban harmed more in Pakistan, Muslims or minorities? Have they destroyed more mosques or temples? Which religion faced the largest number of casualties at the hands of the Taliban? Is Taliban truly Muslim?

    Now again you make sensational and confrontational statements about goody-goodies (should remain within the realms of school vocabulary), arm-chair apologist (who said anything about apology, and for what?) and “Go out and reform your religion”. My dear friend, you have absolutely no knowledge of what I do with my time, isn’t your statement a bit harsh and presumptuous?

    “Closer home, in India, the Indian state has failed miserably in protecting its citizen’s life and property in Kashmir valley. Time and again India Muslims blow up Gujarat riots (the genesis of which can be squarely rest on Godhra Muslims) instead of mentioning anything about the plight of Pandits. Back in 1920s, why did the Kerala Mappalahs, indulge in Ghazwas as a step to re-establish Khalifa rule. Sir, yet again, the ugly face of Islam has been exposed. Please acquaint yourself with plight of displaced and dispossessed Hindu Pandits of Kashmir and then publish your goody-goody rhetoric. This sorry sate of affairs is due to the violent passages from Koran.”

    Just as you say Muslims blow up Gujarat, I can say Hindus blow up the Kashmir issue. What was the number of casualties of Kashmiri pandits? Let us sit and compare it to the Gujarat riots and all other Muslim issues. We can probably discuss a bit of the ethnic cleansing of Christians, but then how can we leave out the Sikh riots? But first we need to draw up rules, because personally, I find rape more heinous than simple murder. But I think burning and torture are the worst. Let us draw up a list below these four categories and then check the results. Whoever wins gets to skin a bigot from the opposite community, what say? I also love the whole ‘genesis lies on the Godhra Muslims‘ argument though, if some one kills one member of my family, then I will kill his whole family (and maybe some friends too). I like that. I don’t mind practising that too, after all an eye for an eye is a pretty solid policy. But friend, we might have a little opposition from something humanity came up with called ‘law’; I don’t know whether you’ve heard of it. Some say it is essential for a civil society and a lack of it may cause mayhem.

    “Regarding terrorist attacks, well the pious claims of SLH are hollow. Yes agreed, victims were Indians, irrespective of their religious affiliation. But teh Indian Mujahideens letter exposes the intent very clearly. Their venom spewed on Hindus and Hindu deities still reek of dead carcass’ stink.”

    A carcass is the dead body of an animal, but which animals are you talking about? If you were referring to the stench of rotten flesh from dead bodies then that smell exists in the homes of Muslims, irrespective of the ideology of any extremist outfit. I’m glad you agree that Indians are killed irrespective of religious affiliation.

    “Finally, the claim that Muslims are poor and deprived is hollow. There are too many Muslims participating in all walks of life to call this bluff. One last test. Hindu Society is tolerant enough to accept a “Dilip Shekar’s” conversion to Islam as A R Rahman and applauds him for his acievements. But would this be possible say, if ShahRukh Khan disavows Islam and embraces Hinduism? Believe me he will killed in broad daylight for apostacy. Such is the bitter truth of Islam.”

    Finally the claim that claims that Muslims are not poor and deprived is hollow. There are too many Muslims suffering from unemployment, illiteracy and poverty for such a claim to have an iota of truth. You see that this sort of debate won’t lead us anywhere. I have already asked you to look up the Sachar Committee report (which you have obviously not). Either read it and then quote it, or state facts regarding the percentage of Muslims who prosper in ‘all walks of life’ as compared to those who don’t. If anything, it is your arguments, my friend, that are slightly hollow. Muslims represent more than 13% of the Indian population, their representation in the state assembly and the centre is less than 5%, is this prosperous?

    No one will be killed in broad daylight, ever heard of Salman Rushdie? I mean how come Modi is still alive? Again I say that the motivation of extremist groups stems from political gains and not from affiliation to any religion. If Dilip Shekhar hadn’t converted, would he have made better music, or would you have preferred it more?

    “SLH, reform, before it is too late. Your moderate voice is hopelssly feeble for the deafening jihadi cries raised by the Muhammadan Jihadists.”

    PK, calm down before its too late. Let communal passions, hate and anger not engulf you and those around you. Help me increase the intensity of my moderate voice so it can engulf the venom of extremism.

  9. SLH said

    To my affable and genial S,

    You have made a profound inference in your first statement, and you are right. There is an immense amount of misinterpretation that continues today. To take it a step further, the term jihad itself has been contorted and maligned out of context. The killing of innocent men, women and children is not Jihad (as the Quran states, and which you already know).

    Now I urge you to calm down, there is no need to use expletives to get any point across. It is unbecoming of civil society and I do not expect it of intellectuals capable of logical analysis (such as yourself). These accusations (paedophile and rapist) are definitely not evident in the Quran or Hadis. I would really like to know the particular translation of the Quran you have read. Could you please give me the name, or at least list the sura’s that prove your accusations.

    Firstly, Parsis and Buddhists are very small in number as compared to the Muslims in this country. Dalits are represented by a party called the BSP, and a leader called Mayavati, which swept the polls in the last UP assembly elections. Should a Muslim party ever be formed, it would be termed communal and separatist. Or would that be fine with you?

    I am still a little unsure if you understood the text you have quoted correctly. It seems you have concluded that I am defending terrorist outfits. I have repeatedly stated that terrorists are repressed or impoverished youth, who are then brain washed and used for political gains. Terrorism is wrong, there is no excuse for it, and due punishment must be meted out. My intention was to illuminate to my fellow bloggers, the pathetic state that Muslims in India find themselves in currently.

    The Muslims in the state of Kashmir have faced the wrath of a sick arrogant war between two nations for their own land. This has caused death and destruction for decades. Kashmir is an extreme example, a state where people live with the constant euphony of shelling. They have terrorists infiltrating from Pakistan and the Indian army countering, in the battle there is only one set of people who suffer, the Kashmiri’s.

    What happened to the Pandits in Kashmir was wrong, what happened to Muslims in Gujarat was wrong, what happened to Christians in Orissa was wrong, what happened to Sikhs in Delhi was wrong. But we must not fight this injustice on religious lines, but on constitutional and legal lines. These are humanitarian issues.

    What would you say if a Muslim, or anyone, files a PIL in Gujarat for justice for Muslims? Other communities have not got justice so you should not ask for justice? If others suffer then you must also suffer?

    A statement calling every Muhammadan is a Jihadi or a supporter of Jihad is childish. State the definition of Jihad from the Quran first, and then we can discuss what jihad is, and that is a debate I would like to participate in. Do not fall prey to the fundamentalist and terrorist definition that caters to violence and hate.

  10. UC said

    @SLH,
    I would like to comment only about the point you mentioned about muslims being poor and deprived and out of work etc etc. Agreed that a large portion of muslims do come into that category and are worse off than many dalits.
    But you also need to understand that there is a large muslim community which is well off financially. This group, as a percentage of the overall muslim population maybe its small, but in numbers they are quite large. But before we continue, let me tell you about my personal experience.
    I am from Bhopal, here most of the “rich” or upper middle class muslims source of income is 1)trading 2)farming 3)service providers like mechanics etc.
    This on their own do not provide for a lot of money. The extra money comes from selling off ancestral land. This is just to tell you that Bhopal has a huge muslim population, many of them are doing very well financially, but maybe not professionally. I have a feeling the same trend occurs at other places too.
    Now in school, we had more or less a 50-50 ratio of muslims and non muslims (this was coz i stay in the older part of the city). The muslim students compared very well with the non-muslim students as far as available cash was concerned.
    After 12th, many of the girls got married, some went to some college but none of the girls went to any professional college. The guys mostly went to some arts/commerce college and i believe not even 10% of the muslim guys went to any professional college, whether medecine or engineering.
    I joined an engineering college, 5 students out of a batch of 180 were muslims. there were hindus and christians from really poor backgrounds , some came from the interiors of madhya pradesh, places i had never heard of, but they all wanted to be engineers and worked hard for the same. meanwhile my muslim classmates from school went into modeling etc. Out of these 5 muslims, 1 was a girl and she got married off immediately after BE and as far as i know she is not working anywhere. One guy got into politics. I guess the other 3 are working somewhere or the other. none of them prepared for either a higher degree entrance test or any PSU entrance test.
    When I started preparing for CAT, in a batch of 300 students, there were only 2 muslims who wanted to appear for this exam. Imagine, a place like bhopal,huge muslim population, good money and such a lousy interest amongst muslims for higher studies.
    The point i want to make with these examples/figures is that forget about the BPL muslims, forget about the muslims in the interiors, I don’t see the city bred, access to good education, well off muslims trying to do something about their lives. A very tiny fraction actually wants to study and enter prestigious institutes others just wile away their time and energy. It is this group, which we see since our school days, our college days, which totally wastes its time, that we hindus say “serves them right” when you say that muslims are at the bottom of the development index.
    I see and hear only complaints, but no action. If muslim students don’t work hard or prepare for entrance examination, how are they going to get into these professional colleges? And it is not difficult nowadays, I am sure you would agree that idiots could get entry into an engineering college now, but still, hardly any muslim participation. Most of my classmates at the engineering college or at MBA were from B class/C class cities or even the interiors, if these guys could make it to these colleges then why not the muslims of the bigger cities? I see muslim families splurging on buying expensive motorbike for their sons, but would send them to cheap govt. colleges. Tell me, where is the will or the intention of moving up the ladder?
    As long as the well to do muslims not do anything about their lives, you would keep hearing “they deserve it” comments.

  11. S said

    “You have made a profound inference in your first statement, and you are right. There is an immense amount of misinterpretation that continues today. To take it a step further, the term jihad itself has been contorted and maligned out of context. The killing of innocent men, women and children is not Jihad (as the Quran states, and which you already know).”

    Taqqiya master, eh ? Yes, of course the killing of innocents is not jihad. The only problem is, non-muslims are not innocent.

    5:33 “The only reward for those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom…”

    War against God, mentioned in 5:33 (above), is also the same kind of huge, flexible category that could include a wide variety of offenses significantly against Islamic doctrine or Islamic society. Aqa Mahdi Puya comments: “Waging war against Allah and His prophet means hostility against His chosen representatives; or deviation from His laws by overstepping the boundaries laid down by Him; or letting loose a reign of terror to persecute and frighten innocent people in order to deprive them of their rights; or attempts to undermine the cause of Islam and the overall interests of the Muslims; or activities to enslave, exploit and destroy human beings.” Source: http://al-islam.org/quran/.

    The worst possible crime is disbelief in or denial of Allah (10:17, 11:18-19, 18:15, 32:22). It is considered an act or state of aggressive defiance against Allah. The Koran is quite explicit that disbelief is a persecution worse than warfare (2:217) or slaughter (2:191) that involves death of Muslims. (For a discussion, including tafsir, of 2:191, see http://www.faithfreedom.org/faq/70.htm, by Ali Sina). Murder of a Muslim is a crime that is penalized according to the law of life-for-life retaliation (5:45; i.e., death penalty), but disbelief is a worse crime! Remember the apologist’s quote, that killing one person is like killing all humankind? If we assume that’s true, then disbelief in Islam is a worse crime than killing all humankind! This sounds like a far-fetched interpretation, but it is a simple logical deduction from what the Koran says. The Koran does not say “disbelief is the second-worst crime, and murder is the worst.” Rather, the Koran clearly and repeatedly states that disbelief is the worst crime.

    “Now I urge you to calm down, there is no need to use expletives to get any point across. It is unbecoming of civil society and I do not expect it of intellectuals capable of logical analysis (such as yourself). These accusations (paedophile and rapist) are definitely not evident in the Quran or Hadis. I would really like to know the particular translation of the Quran you have read. Could you please give me the name, or at least list the sura’s that prove your accusations.”

    “Hell” is an expletive, you sub-animal piece of crap ? (Now that is an expletive, and you will really have to work hard in order to earn it.)

    Paedophilia of the Prophet :

    Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:

    Narrated ‘Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).” what you know of the Quran (by heart)’

    Sahih Bukhari 7.18
    Narrated ‘Ursa:
    The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for ‘Aisha’s hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said “But I am your brother.” The Prophet said, “You are my brother in Allah’s religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry.”

    As for the rapist bit, do take up Ali Sina’s challenge.

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/rapist.htm

    “Firstly, Parsis and Buddhists are very small in number as compared to the Muslims in this country. Dalits are represented by a party called the BSP, and a leader called Mayavati, which swept the polls in the last UP assembly elections. Should a Muslim party ever be formed, it would be termed communal and separatist. Or would that be fine with you?”

    Expulsion of muhammadans from dar-ul-harbs to dar-ul-islam would be fine with me. Then you can all argue about who is the right kind of muslim, shia, sunni, ahmediya, sufi, whatever.

    “The Muslims in the state of Kashmir have faced the wrath of a sick arrogant war between two nations for their own land. This has caused death and destruction for decades. Kashmir is an extreme example, a state where people live with the constant euphony of shelling. They have terrorists infiltrating from Pakistan and the Indian army countering, in the battle there is only one set of people who suffer, the Kashmiri’s.”

    The only people who have suffered in Kashmir are the Pundits.

    “What happened to the Pandits in Kashmir was wrong, what happened to Muslims in Gujarat was wrong, what happened to Christians in Orissa was wrong, what happened to Sikhs in Delhi was wrong. But we must not fight this injustice on religious lines, but on constitutional and legal lines. These are humanitarian issues.”

    Lay the taqqiya on.

    “What would you say if a Muslim, or anyone, files a PIL in Gujarat for justice for Muslims? Other communities have not got justice so you should not ask for justice? If others suffer then you must also suffer? ”

    What is justice for muslims ? That every single Kafir becomes muhammadan.

    “A statement calling every Muhammadan is a Jihadi or a supporter of Jihad is childish. State the definition of Jihad from the Quran first, and then we can discuss what jihad is, and that is a debate I would like to participate in. Do not fall prey to the fundamentalist and terrorist definition that caters to violence and hate.”

    It is not childish, it is the truth. The Koran’s 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

    Like I said, every muhammadan is either a jihadi, or a supporter of jihad. Taqqiya, which you are employing, is also a part of jihad.

  12. SLH said

    To my amiable friend ‘S’,

    Taqqiya, as a term itself, is defined within the realms of bigotry. It helps defend intolerance and there is no rebuttal or remedy for people arguing against the Islamic religion on the basis of taqqiya. For example, I can coin a term called ‘Bistariya’, which means that biased hindutva proponents use skewed British written history to promote anti-Islam separatist sentiments. It is all false. This leaves no room for understanding other perspectives.

    Your sources too are misquoted. I wonder if you’ve even read the suras you have mentioned or just taken them from from just another hate generating ‘bistariya’ website.

    I am deeply saddened by your lack of knowledge on Islam, although I appreciate that you have done some research. It is not your fault, its just that there is a lot more of anti Islam material available on the internet. ‘A little knowledge is a dangerous thing’, that is all I have to say.

    The Quran talks about ‘kafirs’ in the context that they have not received Islam, thus do not hate them or convert them, but show them Islam through EXAMPLE. The religion also states that ‘There is no compulsion in religion’, ‘killing a single person is like killing all humanity, ‘dont cut down a tree if it has a single leaf left’. But then again, you will never appreciate these lines if you shut yourself behind the facade of taqqiya.

    How can you even talk about the Prophet when Hinduism has numerous examples of Gods with vices. There are fathers who have beheaded their children in rage (consequently replaced by an elephant head), Gods who lust after mortals and come down to earth from time to time to consort with them and lastle Gods who have killed other Gods. Further, the two major epics are basically violent and revolve around war.

    I do not want to convert you to Islam on some false pretext, as Islam has enough narrow mindedness individuals beating it down from within at the moment. Adding to it would be disastrous. At one point while reading anti Islam blogs, I was worried about the secular credentials of the majority community, but the elections and various other events that have unfolded have given me hope. I respect the rejection of hatred that young citizens of this country have displayed. I am satisfied that people like you remain a small minority, and I can understand that such extremism will always exist. I hope that priorities of the people remain with the issues of health, security and justice rather than divisional communal or regional hatred.

  13. S said

    @SLH,

    I am not your amiable friend. I am not even your friend.

    “Taqqiya, as a term itself, is defined within the realms of bigotry. It helps defend intolerance and there is no rebuttal or remedy for people arguing against the Islamic religion on the basis of taqqiya. For example, I can coin a term called ‘Bistariya’, which means that biased hindutva proponents use skewed British written history to promote anti-Islam separatist sentiments. It is all false. This leaves no room for understanding other perspectives.”

    Taqqiya means lying to Infidels (Kaffirs) in order to expand Islam, and by now quite a lot of people know this, no matter how many times taqqiya masters like you lie about it.

    You can coin whatever term you like, fact is, Hindus are not interested in world domination like Islam. Hindus do not have a history of aggression like Islam. Incidentally, I am not a Hindu but I have a lot of respect for these people and their faith. The bloodthirsty cult of Islam gets 0 respect from me or from any sane person.

    “Your sources too are misquoted. I wonder if you’ve even read the suras you have mentioned or just taken them from from just another hate generating ‘bistariya’ website.”

    Of course my sources are misquoted. Most people are blind and they simply can’t see the ultra-violent behaviour of Muhammadans – insane savages who imitate their founder Muhammad in all respects of dress, beard, paedophilia, rape and murder. Anything that says that the above actions are wrong is misquoting. Nevermind that the Kuran encourages Muhammadans to live a life like this and tells them that if they do these things they will get 72 virgins and 28 young boys in Jannat (Paradise). The Kuran tells us that Allah runs a brothel in the sky.

    “I am deeply saddened by your lack of knowledge on Islam, although I appreciate that you have done some research. It is not your fault, its just that there is a lot more of anti Islam material available on the internet. ‘A little knowledge is a dangerous thing’, that is all I have to say.”

    I had a little knowledge of Islam a long time back – that was when I believed that the majority of Muhammadans are moderates.

    “The Quran talks about ‘kafirs’ in the context that they have not received Islam, thus do not hate them or convert them, but show them Islam through EXAMPLE. The religion also states that ‘There is no compulsion in religion’, ‘killing a single person is like killing all humanity, ‘dont cut down a tree if it has a single leaf left’. But then again, you will never appreciate these lines if you shut yourself behind the facade of taqqiya.”

    Yes there are moderate verses in the Kuran like the ones mentioned by you above, but what you will fail to state is that these verses were abrogated (replaced) by the latter verses which command warfare against Kaffirs (Infidels). It is these latter verses that have been responsible for the Jihad during the last 1400 years.

    “How can you even talk about the Prophet when Hinduism has numerous examples of Gods with vices. There are fathers who have beheaded their children in rage (consequently replaced by an elephant head), Gods who lust after mortals and come down to earth from time to time to consort with them and lastle Gods who have killed other Gods. Further, the two major epics are basically violent and revolve around war.”

    Hindus are not demanding a state in Kashmir. Hindus are not asking for a Kosovo. Hindus are not blowing themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan.Hindus do not make their kids saw off the heads of animals like Muhammadans. Hindus do not marry 4 wives and breed like cockroaches in order to outnumber other people. Hindus do not burn cars in Paris. Hindus did not kill Theo Van Gogh. Hindus are not blowing up people in Israel. Hindus do not riot in Denmark. Hindus are not stoning their women in the Middle East. Hindus are not killing Buddhists in Thailand.

    “I do not want to convert you to Islam on some false pretext, as Islam has enough narrow mindedness individuals beating it down from within at the moment. Adding to it would be disastrous. At one point while reading anti Islam blogs, I was worried about the secular credentials of the majority community, but the elections and various other events that have unfolded have given me hope. I respect the rejection of hatred that young citizens of this country have displayed. I am satisfied that people like you remain a small minority, and I can understand that such extremism will always exist. I hope that priorities of the people remain with the issues of health, security and justice rather than divisional communal or regional hatred.”

    Only a moron can convert to Islam. I am not one.

  14. SLH said

    To a most radicalised zealot S,

    You are most definitely a moron my friend. Can you even define a Hindu for me? Well, it is but obvious that you are not a Hindu, you my friend do not belong to any religion. Any man with such immense hate for fellow men could not believe in a God who created such imperfection. Would you be kind enough to inform me as to what religion were you born into? I personally have an atheistic bent of mind, which is reaffirmed by religious bigots, whether on extremist narrow minded websites, or elsewhere in the public domain. But as I have said before, your capacity to replace hate with peace is limited and the virtues of a good temperament have eluded you. This will of course manifest itself physically, both on your face and in your health. I am sure if you have a look at the mirror, you might notice some signs already.

    I did not want to resort to debasing ‘Hinduism’ in order to put any point across, but if you believe that Hindus haven’t resorted to violence then you are a greater moron than I could have previously imagined (even to the point of conversion to Islam maybe). There are various instances of Hindus who have unleashed much greater violence on members of their own community (the constantly fighting fractions of Rajputana or the southern kingdoms for example). Cutting the wombs of pregnant women and flinging their foetus into the air was commonplace during the Godhra pogrom. I think you should also read the newspaper once in while for some current affairs, the Lalgarh Naxal issue is another case in the same context (naxalism, by the way. is the greatest point of conflict in modern India) . ‘A little knowledge is a dangerous thing’.

    Further, it is amusing how a person, particularly an Indian (if you are one) can harp on the topic of reproduction. What is even more amusing is forwarding the analogy of cockroaches which only an illiterate would use. I think you must check the increase in the Indian population, compare it with the increase in the Pakistani population (or for any other ‘Muslim’ country) and take into account the percentage of Hindus in India. By your warped logic, you, me and a large number of Chinese are cockroaches too.

    Hinduism also has an inbuilt caste system justified by the concept of rebirth. But, I think you would be better of living as a dalit untouchable cleaning faeces all your life, rather than being born a Muslim. Relegating an individual of you own religion to the point of approachability is certainly less harmful that the teachings of Islam.

    After scrutinised reading of Islamic text, only a moron would spell the ‘Quran’ as ‘Kuran’. I would suggest that you use the former spelling when Islam bashing, it would have a greater impact, as the ‘K’ really hampers your ‘Islamic knowledge’ and arms the opposition.

    You seem to have listed some major events with regard to Islamic communities, but have left out any other conflicts that rage in many parts of the world. Further evidence of lack of knowledge.

    In conclusion, I realised from the first post that your mental capability does not deserve logical arguments or humane thought. Unfortunately, I may have shown lack of judgement by carrying on this exchange, in the false hope of a balanced view. Umpteen arguments can be concocted to debauch any religion that has ever existed on the face of this planet, because at the end of the day, the fault is in men, not in religion.

    Jab na thi humein apni khabar, rahe thhe dekhne auron ke aib-o-hunar;
    jab padi apni buraiyon pe nazar, to nigaah mein koi bura na raha.

  15. S said

    “To a most radicalised zealot S,”

    Radicalised zealot, am I now ?

    “You are most definitely a moron my friend. Can you even define a Hindu for me?”

    For you, the definition of a Hindu would be what I wrote in my earlier post. It is –

    ‘Hindus are not demanding a state in Kashmir. Hindus are not asking for a Kosovo. Hindus are not blowing themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan.Hindus do not make their kids saw off the heads of animals like Muhammadans. Hindus do not marry 4 wives and breed like cockroaches in order to outnumber other people. Hindus do not burn cars in Paris. Hindus did not kill Theo Van Gogh. Hindus are not blowing up people in Israel. Hindus do not riot in Denmark. Hindus are not stoning their women in the Middle East. Hindus are not killing Buddhists in Thailand.’

    “Well, it is but obvious that you are not a Hindu, you my friend do not belong to any religion. Any man with such immense hate for fellow men could not believe in a God who created such imperfection. Would you be kind enough to inform me as to what religion were you born into”

    My beliefs, or lack of, should be of no concern to a muhammadan like you.

    “I personally have an atheistic bent of mind, which is reaffirmed by religious bigots, whether on extremist narrow minded websites, or elsewhere in the public domain. But as I have said before, your capacity to replace hate with peace is limited and the virtues of a good temperament have eluded you. This will of course manifest itself physically, both on your face and in your health. I am sure if you have a look at the mirror, you might notice some signs already.”

    Yes it is apparent that you have “an atheistic bent of mind” because you are out to defend the bloodthirsty death cult of islam. Everyone knows that atheists justify the murder and killing of Kafirs by muhammadans because the muhammadans are the purest type of people and the Kafirs are Najis (unclean). Defending these murderers is the chief hallmark of atheists.

    Last I checked my face it was okay and I was not looking like a muhammadan with a foot-long beard and a dent on the forehead (zebibah) that comes from head banging 5 times a day. So long as I do not look like a madman, or smell like a one, it is fine with me.

    “Cutting the wombs of pregnant women and flinging their foetus into the air was commonplace during the Godhra pogrom. I think you should also read the newspaper once in while for some current affairs, the Lalgarh Naxal issue is another case in the same context (naxalism, by the way. is the greatest point of conflict in modern India) . ‘A little knowledge is a dangerous thing’.”

    This “cutting the wombs” thing has been proven to be lie and an absolute fabrication by a muhammadan, Teesta Satalvad, and right now she is in hiding. But because you muhammadans are so used to lying , you will go on about it anyway. The “Lalgarh Naxal” issue is a localised problem, whereas muhammadans are creating problems wherever they are, whether Kosovo or Kashmir. Checkout the site below for some latest offerings of the Religion Of Peace ™ –

    http://thereligionofpeace.com/

    “Further, it is amusing how a person, particularly an Indian (if you are one) can harp on the topic of reproduction. What is even more amusing is forwarding the analogy of cockroaches which only an illiterate would use. I think you must check the increase in the Indian population, compare it with the increase in the Pakistani population (or for any other ‘Muslim’ country) and take into account the percentage of Hindus in India. By your warped logic, you, me and a large number of Chinese are cockroaches too.”

    You have a thing there – I really have made a mistake comparing Muhammadans to cockroaches. Cockroaches are nature’s cleaners, they eliminate debris and organic matter which would otherwise decay and spread serious diseases. I owe them a mighty apology for comparing muhammadans with them. Muhammadans, the bloodthirsty people who are nothing but a burden on this planet can only be compared to viruses and not even bacteria, because lots of bacteria are symbiotic in nature but viruses are nothing but killers. Ditto for muhammadans.

    “Hinduism also has an inbuilt caste system justified by the concept of rebirth. But, I think you would be better of living as a dalit untouchable cleaning faeces all your life, rather than being born a Muslim. Relegating an individual of you own religion to the point of approachability is certainly less harmful that the teachings of Islam.”

    Aw come on now ! I have no issues with cleaning faeces. Nurses do it all the time. Any average person who keeps dogs cleans shit.

    The teachings of islam (in brief)

    1. Muslims are the perfect and the best kind of people there are.

    2. It is good to make your child behead animals.

    3. Women who are not covered with a black tent (burka) are uncovered meat and fit for rape.

    4. Non-muslims must either be converted to islam or else they must be beheaded.

    5. Non-muslim women and children are sex-slaves.

    6. Stones are the thing to use while visiting the toilet.

    7. Wudu (wazu) cleans a person perfectly and no soap must be used because the prophet muhammad used no soap.

    There are lots of other things that islam teaches, and I request readers to research the Kuran and history of jihad on their own.

    “After scrutinised reading of Islamic text, only a moron would spell the ‘Quran’ as ‘Kuran’. I would suggest that you use the former spelling when Islam bashing, it would have a greater impact, as the ‘K’ really hampers your ‘Islamic knowledge’ and arms the opposition.”

    What makes you think I am taking any suggestions from a muhammadan ? Quran, Kuran, KKKuran – a terror manual is a terror manual.

    “You seem to have listed some major events with regard to Islamic communities, but have left out any other conflicts that rage in many parts of the world. Further evidence of lack of knowledge.”

    90% of the world’s conflicts involve islam and that is what I was listing.

    “In conclusion, I realised from the first post that your mental capability does not deserve logical arguments or humane thought. Unfortunately, I may have shown lack of judgement by carrying on this exchange, in the false hope of a balanced view. Umpteen arguments can be concocted to debauch any religion that has ever existed on the face of this planet, because at the end of the day, the fault is in men, not in religion.”

    The fault is in islam and the mass-murderers it has produced and will continue to produce until it is stopped.

  16. Selvam, Sivagangai said

    Here is what Gandhi had to say in response to the Moplah massacre in the 20s.
    “What was more detestable, the ignorant fanaticism of the Moplah brother, or the cowardliness of the Hindu brother who helplessly muttered the Islamic formula or allowed his tuft of hairs to be cut or his vest to be changed? Let me not be misunderstood. I want both the Hindus and Mussulmans to cultivate the cool courage to die without killing. But if one has not that courage, I want him to cultivate the art of killing and being killed, rather than in a cowardly manner flee from danger.”

    Muslims have clearly cultivated their art of killing, but Hindus are still whining. Wake up Hindu boys! Go out and be men like the Musolemaans.

  17. hindu militant said

    To shabana azmi, if you cannot get apartment in elite class locality of mumbai becuae you are muslim; I also cannot get a place in bhendi bazaar (the muslim ghetto.) Neither can I get a place in millat nagar in andheri the Muslim middle class apartment complex in andheri. It works both ways bitch.

    Regarding the intellectual debate taking place above, I have ONE question. Why dont I, a non-practising non devout hindu , doesnt hate other minorities but only hate muslims? It is because of the behaviour of the muslims. Do some introspection.

  18. maratha warrior said

    @selvam, sivagangai

    Muslims have clearly cultivated their art of killing, but Hindus are still whining. Wake up Hindu boys! Go out and be men like the Musolemaans.

    Spot on my friend.

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